Davidhow would the world be different if we had not invaded iraq?
i don’t know what made me sit and ponder this question today. what would the world be like now.
pretty much the same. overall.
but how would things be going? i mean, think about the problems glaring in thje world today. like iranian nuclear ambitions. the state of afghanistan. oil for food would still be going strong.
how would those things be shaping our world?
first, we wouldn’t have had the close to 2000 deaths in iraq. that’s a plus.
we wouldn’t have spent all the money we have spent in iraq. the lower debt is a plus.
saddam would still be in power. uday would still be raping, and torturing the iraqi soccer team. qusay would still be ordering hits on …. anyone he felt like. there would be little to no infrastructure in iraq. pre-war iraq had everything diverted to baghdad to make it seem like a cosmopolitan society. what would saddam be doing with all of his pesticides and ricin making materials?
how would a saddam hussein in baghdad effect our policy with iran. would we be able to realpolitik iran like we are.? would french politicians still be receiving oil vouchers for their u.n. votes.?
insurgents? the foreign fighters in iraq would not have gone to iraq, they would have gone to afghanistan instead. they went to bosnia. they went to afghanistan to fight the soviets.
afghanistan would be like iraq is now.
the price of oil would be higher. damaged oil supply that iraq can sell is still more than it was allowed under oil for food. less oil, higher price.
osama? main battle tanks and stryker vehicles don’t ferret out caves. the situation with osama would be the same.
bombs in london? still would have happened. osama has openly stated his intent to ‘wipe the anglo saxon race from the face of the earth’. and london is ground zero.
bombings in madrid? still would have happened. moroccan imams are issuing calls for jihad against spain as an apostate nation.
world public opinion.? the french hate us. penis envy. they resent the obvious proof we offer that they are not the worlds most powerful nation. the rest of europe? penis envy. except for eastern europe. they would still like us.
liberals? still hate the u.s.
new orleans? would still have had the same delays in govt reaction to help. it was unprecedented.
what do y’all think?
Do you really want me to answer that? 🙂
“would french politicians still be receiving oil vouchers for their u.n. votes.?”
Maybe, but don’t forget that “individuals and companies in the United States accounted for 52% of all oil-voucher kickbacks paid to Saddam Hussein… – more than the rest of the world put together… The U.S. companies implicated include Exxon Mobil Corp., ChevronTexaco Corp. and El Paso Corp.”
And that “the Bush administration was made aware of illegal oil sales and kickbacks paid to the Saddam Hussein regime but did nothing to stop them”– $8 billion worth through Turkey, Syria, Egypt and Jordan (some of our best pals in the area, no?).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_for_Food
“insurgents? the foreign fighters in iraq would not have gone to iraq, they would have gone to afghanistan instead.”
First of all, the Right has continually overstated the number of foreign fighters:
“only about 4 to 10 percent of the estimated 30,000 insurgents.”
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0923/dailyUpdate.html
Secondly, they would not be the same people who make up that group in Iraq, where it breaks down to: Algerians (20 percent), Syrians (18 percent), Yemenis (17 percent), Sudanese (15 percent), Egyptians (13 percent), Saudis (12 percent) and those from other states (5 percent). Who came to the Taliban’s help? By far mostly Pakistani Pastuns (more of an ethnic link than religious).
Plus, they wouldn’t be able to control towns and IED so many of our boys like they do in Iraq– they’d be stuck in their caves. The Taliban has nothing like the amount of guns and ammo that’s in Iraq. And if 140,000 troops weren’t in Iraq, they might have been available to do more than the 10,000 maximum that’ve been in Afghanistan at one time.
Speaking of which… “new orleans? would still have had the same delays in govt reaction to help.”
http://www.wilmingtonstar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050928/ZNYT02/509280351/1002/business
“In interviews, Guard commanders and state and local officials in Louisiana said the Guard performed well under the circumstances. But they say it was crippled in the early days by a severe shortage of troops that they blame in part on the deployment to Iraq of 3,200 Louisiana guardsmen. While the Pentagon disputes that Iraq was a factor, those on the ground say the war has clearly strained a force intended to be the nation’s bulwark against natural disasters and terrorist attacks.
Disaster experts say that whatever the faults in execution, the 5,700 troops at the disposal of the Louisiana National Guard were far too few.
The senior commander of National Guard troops at the Pentagon, Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, said the Iraq deployment did not slow the hurricane response. He said that Louisiana Guard troops were “in the water and on the streets throughout the affected areas rescuing people within four hours of Katrina’s passing,” and that out-of-state troops arrived as soon as they could be mustered.
But state Guard commanders disagreed. “We would have used them if we’d had them,” said Lt. Col. Pete Schneider, a spokesman for the Louisiana Guard. “We’ve always known in the event of a catastrophic storm in New Orleans that we’d use our resources up pretty fast.”
There is little disagreement that Guard equipment sent to Iraq, particularly hundreds of high-water trucks, fuel trucks and satellite phones, could have helped speed the response. The chairmen of the Senate National Guard caucus, Christopher S. Bond, Republican of Missouri, and Patrick J. Leahy, Democrat of Vermont, said in a Sept. 13 letter to Mr. Bush that the Guard nationally had only 34 percent of its equipment available for use in the United States.”
“bombs in london? still would have happened.”
Easy for you to say, but impossible to be certain.
“Zawahri, shown talking to someone off-screen, said the “blessed” London attacks were targeted at “the British Crusader’s arrogance and against the American Crusader’s aggression on the Islamic nation for 100 years”.
He denounced Britain for “the historical crime of setting up Israel and the continuing crimes in Afghanistan and IRAQ”.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262392.stm
“the french hate us. penis envy. they resent the obvious proof we offer that they are not the worlds most powerful nation.”
That hasn’t been in question for at least 15 years. And as far as France goes, much longer than that. And they don’t hate “us”– they hate GWB, as does most of the world’s population.
“except for eastern europe. they would still like us.”
Don’t be so sure about that! Good article:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2078876/
“82 percent of Hungarians oppose war under any circumstances? This shows a greater level of opposition than in Germany or France.”
“Czech polls showed 76 percent of respondents oppose a war without a second U.N. resolution-and 67 percent oppose it even with one.”
“Polish opposition to war had risen to 75 percent.”
http://www.transatlantictrends.org/doc/2004_english_key.pdf
Country’s support for their troops deployed in Iraq
Poland 24%
Slovakia 21%
(US 57%, UK 50%, Italy 47%, Netherlands (!!!) 58%)
Yeah. Screw you. :p
There’s a difference between hating the direction that the country is going in, and hating the US.
There’s a difference between hating the administration and hating the US.
There’s a difference between hating our policy of horrible foreign intervention and hating the United States.
Heck, there’s a difference between saying “I hate this country” and actually hating the country.
If we hated the country, we’d leave the damned country to y’all, who we’re convinced are destroying it. The fact that we’re here is a testament to the fact that we love the country and are willing to stay and try to see it recover from policies that we consider to be extremely detrimental and damaging.
No Utopia???? Damn, I’m so depressed.
That is some profoundly thoughtful engagement with the issues on the table, Mme. B. You go, cracker girl!
No one’s expecting Utopia (except perhaps the architects of the Ownership Society). In this teeny corner of cyberspace, we’re just trying to counter a small portion of the misinformation and idiocy excreted by the Right.
Up yours Cheney. I was being sarcastic.
And this cracker girl can kick your f-in ass in a country bumpkin minute.
Trust me, lived there, done that, nothin’ to it.
And I’m a hottie too.
Beat that you freakin’ weirdo.
f’in ass? you mean f’in cheney?
wait. i’m confused. aren’t they one and the same? the person who hacks here known as f’in cheney / f’in ass?
that was prett funny mb! nice!
I caught your sarcasm, ya dumb cluck. I’m a hottie, too– so what? It remains to be seen who can kick whose ass. Here, we can only engage in a battle of the wits, for which you are sadly unarmed.
aawwwww shucks Bubba, you almost make me afeared!
Golly gee willickers, lemme quiver in my overhauls.
i doubt you are a hottie gus. now i’ve seen mb, she walks, she talks, and yes, she comes complete. i would like to see pics of her in overalls. especially in a battle with you.
the architects of the owners society? you mean communist masters? who owned everything? but had the poor wretched bourgeoisie fooled into thinking they owned it? remember animal farm?
oooh – CAT FIGHT! Mme B versus Gus-the-Gay-Crusader! I have dibs on the PPV broadcast rights!
AP: 3,663 Iraqis Killed in Past 6 Months. Is that more than Saddam et al. would have killed in that time?
Say on subject, retards.
The Ownership Society, if you haven’t heard W talking about it, is the idealized state of affairs for capitalists where everyone has a piece of the action. For example, just as home ownership usually makes people care about their wider neighborhood because it’s good for their investment to keep property values high, so too should individual retirement accounts and other such instruments allow every American to have a “portfolio” just like the rich folks do, so we can all become better capitalists! This strikes me as just as Utopian a wet dream as the Communist one of peaceful co-operation 24/7. The rich and poor will never be on a level playing field.
not even close gussy gus. saddam killed more than 2 million in 20 years. that’s a 100k a year, or 50k every 6 months.
your reason for bringing this up was?
and Gus, this “ownership society” thing is an effort to institute true reform of the Social Security system (which was set up as TEMPORARY government relief for the millions economically wounded by the Great Depression of the 1930s). Back when there were what, 17 people working to support each recipient of payout? When the Boomers retire (starting this year, mind) the ratio will be much smaller, eventually closing on 2:1. At that point we’re living in a country where you no longer work for yourself, but for your fellow citizen. You go, Comrade!
Gus, you want to accept personal responsibility for half of Joe Schmoe’s retirement income while trying to support your Xtasy habit and still have money left over for food, well then, feel free. Me, I gotta worry about supporting my family, getting my kids edumacated, and oh, supporting my parents in their dotage — not to mention setting aside something for my own retirement. The system as we know it will destroy the country unless we take the great pains now to fix the problem.
Yes, Gus, it will cost BILLIONS, and yes, it will cause all sorts of problems with our budget. But wouldn’t you rather get it over with now than wait for the crash to hit us in 20-40 years? Of course, you’ll be in your 80s in 40 years, or dead, so no big deal, right? Let everyone else’s kids worry about their own futures, as long as you get yours, right?
And of course, since it’s not a looming problem (won’t happen before the next elections), none of the politicos want to deal with it. And they (and Gus) laughed at Bush when he tried to get something done about it until the issue went away. Much more important to work on more important things, like ensuring illegals get free and unrestricted access to our country, after all!
Oh, those European nations you so like, Gus? Many of them are moving to an “ownership society” type social security system……